Talk:Vhaeraun
I find Vhaeraun's holy symbol and artwork of him may be incorrect. it is stated in the prologue of Storm of the Dead that Eilistraee has the mask covering the lower half of her face. is is stated elsewhere that vhaeraun's differs? Also at the end of Storm of the Dead Eilistraee "Eilistraee turned her hand palm-up, lifted her mask, and blew the ash away. " (like 1 paragraph from the end of book).Doonval ti bekk'har (talk) 01:47, August 30, 2013 (UTC) :I'm not sure what you mean, but the images are taken from the sourcebooks, Faiths and Pantheons and Player's Guide to Faerûn, so they are correct. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:40, August 30, 2013 (UTC) :Lisa Smedman's description of Vhaeraun, Eilistraee, their rituals, and other aspects (like the symbol of Vhaeraun) in her books, don't match the actual lore. Lore incongruences are a known problem with the Lady Penitent books, actually--Tsammarco (talk) 20:38, July 17, 2016 (UTC) About the Jaezred Chaullsin, I intend to edit it as an Assassin's Guild instead of a house. The reason is while they are called a House they fall too far from the regular meaning of one. I tried to change it but it was edited back, here I write the reasons why I think it is better to call it a criminal organization and not a House in the sense of nobility. A house would imply familial ties inside the group being the deciding factor to be part of it, while the group itself does descend from the ruling House of Chaulssin according to the WE City of Wyrmshadow, it is in fact led by a ruling council of eight patriarchs who head different families (hence different last names), moreover entering this group is done by being useful in toppling Lolth's rule and not necessarily blood ties (the 7 declared as not being of a race listed by this point in the racial composition of the guild, they could be normal drow but this would pose the question why not declaring them as such, thus implying that these sevens' background is rather diverse). Although "house" would mean being a governmental body, while they are "ruling" what's left of Chaulssin, they are not governing it. For example, nothing implies an interest in building infrastructure or expanding the city, having foreign policy or the like. Moreover the monetary gain is done in way akin to mafia esque organizations. Individuals take criminal jobs and pay a percentage of it to the upper echelons, instead of taxes collected in regular intervals like a government. And most importantly, the Jaezred Chaullsin are explicitly described as and called an Assassins' Guild in the Web Enhancement. So my suggestion is "A patriarchally led Assassins' Guild that rules what is left of Chaulssin." How about it? Best Regards Saya222 Two editors, one page Hello, Tsammarco and Saya222. I'm glad to see two new/returned faces come in and start a big project on an important topic. It's good for the wiki and I hope you'll enjoy the wiki-writing experience and decide to stay on for other projects. I'd like to share some advice to make your efforts easier. First, it looks like two editors want to make a project out of this one topic. This will inevitably lead to editing conflicts (when two editors edit the page at the same time, the second will have their changes interrupted), and potentially overwritten passages and duplicated work if you work on the same topics at the same time. So I suggest you two collaborate closely on this. Talk about it, decide who does what, work out a division of labor. Second, the page is now getting very long. Cramming a worshipers section into a deity article is fine for the smaller/older/stubbier god pages, but for recent deity work, we've been pushing for worshiper-related information to be shifted into a separate Organization page. Tsammarco, remember we did this with Eilistraee? For example: * Ilmater and Church of Ilmater * Eilistraee and church of Eilistraee * Mystra/Mystra (Midnight) and Church of Mystra That allows each page to focus on its topic, with separate infoboxes and categories, and makes them easier to read. So perhaps one of you could do Vhaeraun and the other church of Vhaeraun? Third, please please please please learn to use the Preview button. In whatever skin you're using, it will be right next to/above Publish. That will show you what the page looks like after your changes, so you can see what worked, what didn't, and think about your changes before you save them. This page saw 26 edits just today, which is a lot to go through if anyone needs to unpick a change or find out who added what to an article. Ideally, an editor should only make one edit to add the new and corrected information, and maybe one or two more to fix any errors. (I recommend writing in a word processing program like Word first, then adding the finished piece to the article.) Fourth, I recommend using these pages as models: * Ilmater, Church of Ilmater, Eilistraee, Mystra/Mystra (Midnight), Church of Mystra, Waukeen They follow all our current styles and formatting and have been checked over, and some have been voted as Featured Articles. Fifth and finally, don't rush! A lot of new editors just go mad on editing in the first week or two, they jump between topics, they don't spend the time to learn or practice, then they burn out or get bored, and disappear. Take your time, work on one thing at a time, and get it right. Vhaeraun is a mammoth topic for a first project. I recommend starting on something minor so you learn the wiki code and style, before tackling something like this. So, please look this over, see what you think and what you can take on board, and ask me if you have any questions. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:14, July 18, 2016 (UTC) :PS: Sixth: Separate groups like the Jaezred Chaulssin are better discussed and detailed on the Jaezred Chaulssin page. This page should focus on Vhaeraun himself, with only one or two lines at most to introduce groups like the Jaezred Chaulssin, House Jaelre, or the Dragon's Hoard. This reduces duplication and repetition of lore and allows a page to focus on its main topic, not be cluttered with only tangentially related topics. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:19, July 18, 2016 (UTC) Copying what follows here, from User talk:Tsammarco, since it is relevant. Cooperation Dear Tsammarco, I’m Saya222. The talk page of Vhaeraun’s page has told me that two people worked on the page and that you were the other one besides me. First, I need to thank you for editing the page in adding lore, making the page more sightly both in the orderly manner like paragraphs and also in the language section but most importantly in making the page more neutral and thus more informative. The talk page has told me to divide the work between us, may I ask whether you are interested? I’m asking because I like the character and his troupe and while I try to be neutral, but fact is I word the content in more or less favoring manner. I realized it always on the next day or after you edited it. Added to this comes the fact that you know more, for example I really thought Eilistraee just shot Corellon and the arrow was not directed by Lolth. And most importantly your language and writing style are clearly better than mine, I realize that I translate directly from Japanese sometimes and also have yet to learn to order in paragraphs. Please reply to this and thank you again Best Regards Saya222 Saya222 (talk) 11:30, July 18, 2016 (UTC) :Hello, Saya222. :I'd be happy to work with you on the page about Vhaeraun and his followers. I understand the difficulty to be neutral, since Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are my favourite deities in the Forgotten Realms (Eilistraee means a lot to me, but I also *really* like Vhaeraun, and was very pleased to see them working together in 5e), so there's no problem with that. :I also understand the difficulty with language, as I am a non native speaker too, and I too have troubles with idioms and forms (although translating from Japanese must be surely harder than transalting from Italian). :That said, BadCatMan suggested to split the page in two articles, one for Vhaeraun, and one for his followers. :A Church of Vhaeraun page should include the info that you have added to the deity page (so, composition of the worshipers/clergy, beliefs/dogma, activities, relationships, orders, notable characters). But it should also include lore about rituals, magic items, equipment, centers of worship. The history is mostly the same as that of Vhaeraun himself, but it could use a few adjustments to better emphasize the role of the worshiper themselves. The sections about the Vhaeraunite orders, organizations and the speciality priests should be just brief paragraphs, and redirect to the main pages (in line with the articles that BadCatMan linked). :Vhaeraun's page itself is missing sections about his manifestations, powers, and activities. The worshipers section should be reduced to a small summary, and then provide a link to the Church of Vhaeraun page. We could move the info about the holy symbol and the divine realm to sections on their own (the one about the realm should probably be split in subsections about the Great Wheel, World Tree and World Axis cosmologies, to avoid confusion. The 5e, and current cosmology, is a slightly altered version of the Great Wheel). :I don't know what books you have access to (I guess that Lords of Darkness, Skullport and Faiths and Pantheons are among them), but Demihuman Deities and The Drow of the Underdark (both 2e) include a much more complete writeup of the deity and his church, so they should also be mined for lore. :Again, I'd be happy to work with you. :Best regards, :Tommaso :PS: I think that we should move the conversation to the Vhaeraun Talk Page (in fact, I'll copy-paste all of this there)--Tsammarco (talk) 13:55, July 18, 2016 (UTC) ::Dear Tsammarco, ::thank you for the reply and for sensible direction regarding the work. ::As you probably know, I'm new to this wiki and I can't yet say that I've got the hang of it. Long matter short, I don't feel confident enough to create a new page by myself, yet. ::So my suggestion is that I add first a bit of information. Said information is the following two. Please tell me whether these have a place at all. ::1. Rituals, "The Masked Lord's Embrace" and the hunt during new moon are rituals I'd like to add. ::2. Attitude, this one is an observation rather than lore written somewhere, but Vhaeraun and his followers seem to have a relationship that is more "equal" than other gods. The best example is probably that they think up plans in which they use their god as a tool (Malvag in the Lady Penitent seires openly calls him as such) and they are capable to discuss his weakness with each other including clerics. ::My other reason to write is pure curiosity. You wrote that Eilistraeean souls for the "Open gate to Arvandor" High Magic were needed because the priests lacked the trust necessary trust. May I ask the page where it was written? I always thought they just needed souls as batteries because it would have drained their own and chose Eilistraee's followers to open a gate to Eilistraee's realm. ::Thank you in advance for reading this and for everything else ::Best Regards ::Saya222 :::1)Sure, all rituals need to be discussed. They should be added to the Church of Vhaeraun page. If you don't feel like creating it, I will do it either tormorrow, or the day after. I will also add sections about manifestations and activities to the Vhaeraun page. :::2)We could say that some followers see their god as a tool, and that they have an unusually down-to-earth opinion of him, if compared to followers of other deities, and then point to Malvag as one example. It is not a general thing. In the novels, that's the PoV of some priests. The sourcebook do mention Vhaeraun's responsiveness, tho, but that is already in the article. :::I reread the passages in Sacrifice of the Widow regarding the souls of the priestesses of Eilistraee, and they were indeed used as batteries, not as "trust catalysts", so to speak. So, thank you for the correction, which I will immediately make both to this and to Eilistraee's page, and my apologies for not double-checking. :::The first time I read it, I was under the impression that the priestesses' souls were also needed as some kind of bond between the casters, because there was a passage saying that the priests had trouble actually trusting eachother, but that it was needed for the ritual to work. But it was my extrapolation, and they actually managed to muster enough recprocal trust for the ritual, so I will also add that. :::If you find any other thing that you feel needs to be double-checked, feel free to point it out.--Tsammarco (talk) 22:57, July 18, 2016 (UTC) :::I've corrected the error, and added a paragraph explaining how some followers see Vhaeraun in the personality section--Tsammarco (talk) 23:43, July 18, 2016 (UTC) ::::Dear Tsammarco, ::::thank you for the reply and for your work. ::::I have to say, though that you are giving me credit I don't deserve because the correction wasn't intended as such and only turned out so. ::::But back to the topic. I added a Ritual section as the last part into the worshipper section. The idea was that two of the ritual "bowl sacrifice" and "Masked Lord's Embrace" are activities to either celebrate success of plans or an occasion to come up with new ones. Personally I found it interesting about the latter that the initiative for planning is given to the follower and not the god giving his plans to the follower to well follow. ::::I've got a question about the stag hunt, if you allow. It is said that it is a perversion of elven rituals. In what way? I do understand that antlers are good trophies and the heart is a good part but what is the part that makes this ritual an evil one? Given that only one stag is referenced as being sacrificed overhunting is certainly not the problem here. Do you have a sourcebook that details this better? ::::Again thanks for the reply and most importantly for the assurance that you set up the church page. ::::Best Reagards ::::Saya222 :::::I've created the page about the Church of Vhaeraun. It's not complete yet, but I will add more sections in the future (I've talked about it in the talk page of the article itself). The article about Vhaeraun also needs sections about manifestations and activies (and to move some info to sections about the symbol and the realm), which I will add (probably during the weekend), if you're ok with it. :::::I'm not sure how sacrificing a stag is a perversion of the elven rituals. Demihuman Deities says that it's not as much a perversion of a current elven ritual, as of those performed by ancient surface elves. It doesn't explain how it's supposed to be evil, tho. The only thing that I can think of, is that it consists of killing a non dangerous animal just for the sake of it (compared to--say--a similar ritual performed by the Eilistraeeans where the prey is either a monster, or edible and eaten). But I guess that the animal could then be eaten by the Vhaeraunites as well (I mean, why should they waste food?), so I really don't know. :::::About plans, it's rare for a deity to come down and give precise plans to their followers. It's an exception, rather than the norm. Deities and follwers usually have certain goals and beliefs, which lead to the development of their modus operandi, and--when a problem arises--it is the followers that usually come up with the plan. Deities can nudge mortals towards specific directions (by communicating with them, in a way or another), but they mostly provide the tools/help for it. That said, as you pointed out before, Vhaeraunites do seem to see their deity as a tool for their plans, sometimes.--Tsammarco (talk) 17:33, July 20, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Dear Tsammarco, ::::::thank you for setting up and writing the page. ::::::Also, thank you the answer about my question about the perversion, it was interesting for real life reasons. I didn't know that stags are considered harmless in Italy. In Japan, especially males who are trying to get their harem are considered dangerous because they pick a fight with everything in their territory, including humans. ::::::But back to topic, I've added a section about the time between his death and his revival. I will probably write this section a bit further and also something in the Jaezred Chaulssin page. It will probably be in one or two days but at latest at weekend. ::::::Thank you again and best regards ::::::Saya222 :::::::I didn't know that male stags could become so aggressive when trying to form their harem. I doubt that they are considered harmless here, or anywhere, in that case. Admittedly, I know basically nothing about them, and thought that they attacked only if provoked. :::::::I will try to complete this page during the weekend, and will start to add details to the followers page the next week.--Tsammarco (talk) 00:49, July 21, 2016 (UTC) Thanks for collaborating on this. I've only just caught up on your discussion; I'll share some quick thoughts and pointers. First, even if you're both fans of Vhaeraun, try not to be overly sympathetic to the character. He's still evil, still a villain to some games. The aim is to accurately reflect what the sourcebooks and novels say about the character. If they say he's evil, cruel, whatever, then you say he's wicked, nasty, etc. If they differ on some aspect, then try to offer both views. The attitudes or views of the god and his followers can go in Personality in the Vhaeraun article (from Vhaeraun's perspective) and in an Attitudes section in the church of Vhaeraun article (from the follower's perspective). Rituals you can discuss on the Church page. If they're very long and detailed, you can consider splitting the ritual off onto a separate page, and leave only a summary on the Church page. At some point, when you two call it done, I have the time, or you ask, I'll go over the pages, copy-edit them, check facts, fix formatting and style, etc. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:18, July 21, 2016 (UTC) :Dear BadCatMan and Tsammarco, :first to BadCatMan, thank you for direction and caution. I'll be neutral or at least try to be. As a general rule, I will give the lead to Tsammarco, he's the senior and simply better at writing. :Now to Tsammarco, I have put the Vhaerath, the dead followers who can be called, to the Servitors section. The reason is that it is written in the page that Vhaeraun forbids creatures to be summoned except his avatar while these are the explicit exception to the rule (Admittedly it is doubtful whether the developers cared for the no-summon-rule in 3e). About the Vhaerath, do you think they're as dead followers right in the Organization/Composition section of the church? Do you know whether dead followers are part of a church? Though even if they aren't, being able to help living ones certainly is a good argument to be listed as part of the organization. :The second thing I changed is one ability of the Skulkers, the divine ability was producing poison, enhancing it was not divine in nature. I think I've made the mistake due to me having played the enhance effect more often the produce one. I'm sorry. :As mentioned above, I will add some bits into the Jaezred Chaulssin section. Please write me if I have to change something (habit wise, style wise, content,...). :Thank you and best reagrds :Saya222 ::Saya, I don't think that I should have the lead or the final say on anything. We will discuss the various matters, and decide about them together. ::About the Vaerath, I think that you made a good choice, and that they fit better in this page (after all, they are indeed servitors, even if they were formerly living followers). ::I don't think that there's much that you should change. If needed, I'll (try to) adjust your phrasing and make it sound smoother. About the Jaezred Chaulssin, I think that anything you have to say about them, would fit better in their page (linked above). As for me, I'll complete Vhaeraun's page between tomorrow and Sunday, and then start working on the one about his followers. ::Thanks for your contribution--Tsammarco (talk) 19:48, July 22, 2016 (UTC) :::This page should be complete--Tsammarco (talk) 22:56, July 22, 2016 (UTC) :::I second that opinion.--Saya222 (talk) 18:46, July 23, 2016 (UTC) ::::It only occurred to me now but we seem to have forgotten about Zandilar and the birth of Selvetarm. If nobody objects, I will write it in the next days. ::::Sure. It should be added as a section between the Crown Wars and WotSQ--Tsammarco (talk) 16:16, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :::::Done, I hope it looks well enough.Saya222 (talk) 09:15, August 21, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Dear Tsammarco, ::::::thank you for your help with the articles. ::::::I've seen your question in the edit summary, so I'd like to try to explain it. ::::::The question was about the competition. When Eilistraee found the sheath and was carrying it back, her thoughts were about her father treasuring the scabbard was because it was made by Lolth, the one he loved the most. Immediately after that she calculates for herself the chances to be loved a bit more by her father, in other words the chances of closing the gap between her place of love inside Corellon and that of her mother, in short it’s a harmless competition with the “adversary“ not getting hurt all. ::::::The scene’s rather cute and also effective, don’t you think? It easily shows Eilistraee’s healthy craving for love in comparison to Vhaeraun’s jealously lashing out during the trial for not getting what he wants and also makes clear how evil mother and brother are by plotting around abusing this craving. ::::::I hope, this clarified your question. May I ask whether I understood it completely wrong? ::::::Best Regards and thank you again ::::::Saya222 ::::::Saya222 (talk) 21:09, January 6, 2017 (UTC) :::::::In that scene Eilistraee isn't calculating. It is just said that she hoped that Corellon could maybe love her a bit more. In other scenes, Eilistraee is showing as genuinely loving of her mother and wishing to spend time with her, assuming a competition out of that small passage is a very personal interpretation (especially when such a competition could hint to incest-related tendencies, which is clearly not the case). Saying that she hoped to be rewarded with more affection is enough to explain what was going on, as far as I can see. --Tsammarco (talk) 21:22, January 6, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::Dear Tsammarco, ::::::::understood about it, just two questions, though these were more due to some leaps I couldn't really follow. May I ask how you did jump to incest-related tendencies, and could it be that you think it is impossible to compete over something with people you love without wishing them bad things? ::::::::This is just personal interest. Given that this actually doesn't have anything to do with the article, I don't mind if you just delete this entry. ::::::::Best Regards and thank you for the effort ::::::::Saya222 ::::::::Saya222 (talk) 21:46, January 6, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::Incest could easily be a possible interpretation for those who are not aware of the story and read the article. Considering that it's not like love is a measurable quantity, or like there's a limited pool of it that you can compete over--and since the kind of love that a father feels for his daughter is different from the kind of love that he feels for his partner--the only kind of attention that Eilistraee could have been competing with Lolth over, would be Corellon's romantic interest. :::::::::Yes, it is obviously possible to compete with someone you love, but this was a different situation. A daughter competing with her mother over her father's love (or a son competing with his father over his mother's love, or whatever) is not a healthy situation to have in a family.--Tsammarco (talk) 21:59, January 6, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::Dear Tsammarco, ::::::::::thank you for answering. ::::::::::Best Regards ::::::::::Saya222 ::::::::::Saya222 (talk) 18:38, January 8, 2017 (UTC) Featured Article This should totally be a Featured Article, I'd like to nominate it! --Regis87 (talk) 23:25, May 12, 2018 (UTC) :See Forum:Nominated Feature Articles, start a new section, and put yourself as the first vote! :) —Moviesign (talk) 00:39, May 13, 2018 (UTC) Good Article Status ; Correct : yes ; Referenced : yes ; Formatted : yes ; Clean : yes ; Nearly complete : yes ; Policy-adherent/Demonstrative : yes Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes I would wait before adding info from MToF that goes beyond portfolios/domains. The lore about Vhaeraun in that book is a sharp 180° from his lore as meant by Ed Greenwood and those who expanded on his take. I mean, he's basically subservient to Lolth in that book, and his followers are content with taking part in the infighting of the Lolthite to scrap a good place in that society (and obedience--effing obedience--is one of his traits?) WTH were they even thinking?--Tsammarco (talk) 15:23, June 14, 2018 (UTC) On a second thought, this is quite similar to what Smedman tried to do to Eilistraee with LP, but I'd rather avoid adding similarly contradictory information to pages about Vhaeraun. MToF "Vhaeraun" is not Vhaeraun, same as LP "Eilistraee"--Tsammarco (talk) 15:41, June 14, 2018 (UTC) :Hello Tsammarco :thanks for reading. I actually thought I made sure that nothing that frontally contradicts FR-lore is added. After all the value system in this community is "FR-lore">"general lore". The History part is an exception for the build up of MToF is of universal nature and the War of the Seldarine is therefore just a myth told by the elves of Toril (Evermeet's existence for example is attributed to the "true history" as told in MToF). Regarding the obedience and other stuff, it's the stance of Vhaeraun's main body. I'm sure that's the route WotC wants to go with the character. Regarding the aspect of Toril, the enmity between Lolth and Vhaeraun is alive and well with the lore from "Szith Morcane Unbound". Again "FR-lore">"general lore". :Personally, I like the changes made. It introduces a lot of ideas for DMs to use and expands the any world setting. :Best Regards :Saya222 Saya222 (talk) 16:52, June 14, 2018 (UTC) ::The part that you added doesn't directly contradict the FR lore about Vhaeraun, but it takes off some nuance (in that he used to be willing to compromise, now he seems far less likely to). It's ok IMO, but it's also why I suggested to wait before adding more than that (as a large part of his writeup in MToF is in stark contradiction with what is said in this article and in the original lore). ::I don't mind the change about the elven lore in general (it's basically a twist on "Lolth betrayed Corellon"), but I'm seriously disappointed by what they did to Vhaeraun. Not the same character at all. He is depicted like some kind of good, silent, obedient boy in service to Lolth, and is even confused with Keptolo. I mean, really? That's just disrespecting and warping one of the most compelling drow characters out there, and 20+ years of lore. ::Btw, I'm hearing from many that WotC declared AL as not canon (even though I can't offer a source), so at this point I'm really confused.--Tsammarco (talk) 16:09, June 14, 2018 (UTC) :::Thanks for the reply. I'm glad that I caused no real problems. About the AL, that's indeed odd. After all, one hurdle for the convention organizers to get their adventures accepted into AL is to fully comply with canon material.Saya222 (talk) 16:52, June 14, 2018 (UTC)